Mazda Bountiful puts forth this Masters proposal:

Change Bylaw 10 to read:
 
Categories:
 
Masters 40+ (Cat 1, 2 and 3)
Masters 50+
Masters 60+Change Bylaw 13 to read:
 
Masters B Category is available to riders who are at least 40 years old and are category 3, 4 or 5 riders. Category 1 and 2 riders are not allowed to participate in the Masters B.  Masters 50 and Masters 60 will be raced together and individual races will be awarded together, however UCA points will be accrued separately as separate categories.
 

What happens to the Masters 35 category (Both A & B)?

Ok let me make sure I'm clear; there would be 4 masters categories scored in 3 racing fields? The racing fields would be:

Masters B - 40+ cat 3, 4, & 5 

Masters 40+ cat 1, 2 & 3 

Masters 50+ & 60+ - race together score separately.

Is the 50/60+ field an open field (Cat 1-5)?

Why not just leave the B field alone at 35+ cat 4 & 5? It has proven to be a very successful field and by raising the age to 40+ it would force a lot of riders into the already large cat 4 & 5 fields.

-Shane 

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

I agree with Shane. I think the Ski Utah proposal is the best and easiest solution.

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Gary Porter

G-P:

I agree with Shane. I think the Ski Utah proposal is the best and easiest solution.

 

Gary, I'm not sure what I like best. Each have elements I like and dislike. I like the 40 -50 -60 idea (that 50+ field would be tough) but not real fond of 3's in the B's. We tried that the first year and it seems like we had a lot of sandbagging. Also there are a lot of 35-39 y/o's in the B's and I dont think enlarging our 4 & 5 fields is a good idea.

I'm glad we are getting different idea's though, so we can have some good discussion and hopefully come up with something better than what we have, or decide that what we have isn't broken and leave it alone.

-Shane 

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

I'm in the camp of thinking that masters racing should begin at 40. I have no problem with the concept of a 35+ "b" group however. Just thinking of how to make fewer "larger" fields and have it be fair. If there are 35+ guys that are too strong to be in the "b" group, they should be riding their category. BTW someone that is 36 and is claiming to be an old guy is getting no sympathy in this debate!

 I'm now 55 and probably shouldn't even be posting as I neither have a vote or the ability to propose any changes. Thinking about just riding off into the sunset.....

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Gary Porter

I think Masters age should start when you either can't sleep at night or when you're older than the guys in the Tour de France, whichever is later.  :)

I personally like the proposals to change up the Masters fields since the 35+A field has been broken for many years. These proposals have the potential to result in larger fields. I personally wouldn't change the 35B field though. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

Masters B has been very successful.  Getting rid of it would be a mistake.  However, as I've said in another post, its tough to say as a cat 4/5 you're Masters age at 35 but at cat 3 + you're not Masters age until 40.  Granted, not too many have graduated from Masters B to A, in prior years but 2011 is an exception.  There are at least 6 of us upgrading and another 2 or 3 who should.  Some are well above the 30 point mandatory upgrade threshold and are sandbagging.  Regardless, that leaves pelnty of space on the podium for others to perform and upgrade as well.

Ben, I can empathize with your concerns, but the problem now is that almost every race, the Masters 35 and 45 are combined.  There ends up being 2 or 3 35's and unfortuneately it generally makes for negative racing.  One of the strong 35s will attack and none of the 45s wants to go with because they are scored separate.  It makes for poor quality racing.

One solution to this is to make all Masters start at 35.  The problem with this is that there is a huge disparity between a 36 year old and a 50 or 54 year old.  Trust me, you'll see.  The solution that seems to affect the least number of people is the Ski Utah proposal.  Once you upgrade to Cat 3, you will be fine and should be able to be competetive in that field until you hit 40.  Most of us raced category up until we were 45 years old.  The Cat 3s are not just young kids.  There are some very experienced racers in the field that have been there for quite some time.

By making a few riders make a small sacrifice, we will end up with better racing in the long run.

Maybe the best solution is this:

Masters 40+ A (cat 1/2/3)

Masters 40+ B (cat 4/5 and cat 3s if over age 50)

Masters 55+ (cat 1/2/3/4/5)

Comments?

Bottom line what is the reason for this change? Is it to lower the number of fields run during the day? Is it to make the fields more competitive?

 If it is to have fewer fields then you need to look at all of them not just masters.  You have 4 women who race 35+, you have on average 6 Cat 1-2-3 women and on average 8-12 Cat 4 women. Why not just have an Open Women.  You are required to run 8 junior categories that on average have 0-4 riders. 

If this is to make the fields more competitive then that is a different reason and you need to look at the makeup of the clubs wanting to change the rules for the masters.

Racing together and scoring separate for points is always a bad idea, and here is why. I go up the road with my team mate who is 60+ and work to take him to the line and he wins   another 60+ rider who has no teammates has no one to work for him, is this fair? One category one winner

If you really want to control the number of races run during the day, which I might add is a good thing, look at the whole category system that we have and redo it.

Here is what I would do   12 Categories  plus field limits

Pro-1-2 M 100 riders

Cat 3 M 100 riders

Cat 4-5 M 75 Riders (Add additional field if needed)

Master 35+ Cat 1-2-3 100 riders

Master 35+ Cat 4-5 75 riders

Master 55+ Cat 1-2-3-4-5 75 riders

Open Women 100 riders

Cat 4 Women 75 riders

Junior Boys 10-14

Junior Boys 15-18

Junior Girls 10-14

Junior Boys 15-18

 

 

A thought thats missing in the dialog is Points and Upgrades...

USA Cycling says you can upgrade to CAT 2 using masters points, there are a number of guys that are easily at the mandatory upgrade point threshold this year that might have fun in CAT 2.

You can only get points for upgrade if the Masters race has only those category at or above the category you are trying to get points for.

Example:  Master 35+ Cat 1-2-3-4   you cat not use these to upgrade to cat 2 because cat 4 are allowed to race   

Example: Master 35+ Cat 1-2-3 you can use these points to upgrade to Cat 2 but not Cat 1 

 Does this make sense?

Really there is no reason to force  a Master 35+ Cat 3 to upgrade to Cat 2 if all he ever does are masters races as he still will be racing in the same field  

Dirk,

I don't think the intent of this change was to reduce the total number of fields.  I think i was solely about making master's racing better.  I think for most of us, the disparity between the fitness levels of a 35 year old an 55 year old are pretty huge.  That is the reason behind the 40 year old entry point for masters.  We reduce the masters field by one, increase the sizes of the remaining 3 fields, and eliminate the race together, score separate scenario.

That is a valid point. However it may have an adverse effect on new masters who are 35+ from trying to race because it will force them into the cat 5 and cat 4 open field. Starting master at 35+  which was the B filed is a good idea.  The 40+ for the Master A is still a little tough as some riders will set in the master B field. There is a big difference between 50 and 55 and 60 so you need to be sure and address the older guys as well.    All good thoughts.