Jeff,

 First of all, Thank You!  It is refreshing to hear somebody admit that there is a problem, and make a commitment to try and fix it.

At the State TT, I passed the rider directly in front of me in about 5 minutes.  He never passed me back, so I know for certain that his time was slower than mine.  When the results were posted, the rider showed up two places in front of me.  I potested this to the official, she wrote it down, and I proceeded to wait two hours for the results to be corrected.  Having been chastised before for not waiting until the final results were posted, I wanted to make sure I did it right.  Finally, the officials and everyone started leaving.  I asked if the final results were going to be posted, and the officials said they had them somewhere, and I could take a look.  Nothing had been changed.  The Sports Base folks went ahead and made the change for me, and all was well for me.  However, if the chip malfunction is what caused the rider to be placed in front of me, this would have been the time to correct it.  Instead, someone will likely have to deal with this same chip again.  Final results never were posted for either the 3s or the 1-2s. 

There are obvioulsly some personality issues at work that may be keeping us from moving forward.  The vibe that I got was definitely that nobody really cared about the Cat 3s at all.  Several of us hung around for quite a while, but eventually everybody gave up and left.

As far as the electrical tape issue, I have been using tape to secure my chip since Hell of the North when my chip broke.  I have attempted to obtain a replacement case several times to no avail.  Perhaps some could be kept with the rental chips?

Claw,

Thanks for responding to this and sharing information. I am concerned about the erratic and arbitrary results that you and Todd have both mentioned. That is what shakes my confidence in the system. If you have chips that are registering early or late out there, how do we find them and get them replaced? Is there a reader that can test them at registration to make sure they are functioning correctly? I know they do this at LOTOJA. I'm glad the chips are being used at RMR and Salt Aire to try to work out the kinks and am wondering how that is going? I do have confidence that a chip timing system can work and work well as I've been in races where they seemed to be flawless - I just want to help get "ours" to that point as it will make all of us (promoters, officials, timing system operators, racers and racer's significant others) happier people :-)

 -SD

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

Todd,

I will get back to you on your State TT question, I can't immediately answer you and want to get a response from the officials before I reply.

Shane, I think the defective chips have been weeded out. I am not sure what happened with Todd's situation at the State TT, it doesn't sound like it was a defective chip to me but we will investigate it. I know the chips have been working for us—and the Crit series—in most cases quite well. As you can see by the list of problems we have had, there are a lot of extenuating circumstances involved here. Some chip problems, some equipment problems, some software issues, some human error, some procedural problems, and a fair amount of user error.

I too have seen chip timing work perfectly and that is what we all want to see.

I hope that you can see the problems we face and know that we are working on it. Please check out Ferg's comments on this site (news at top left), and/or the email he sent this morning (Tuesday 6/9).

Thanks, Jeff Clawson

PS: It has been suggested we use this forum for hearing individual scoring problems, I think that's a great idea.

So, here is an individual scoring problem and I'm not sure how to deal with it.  I am listed as DNF on the UCA results, although I did finish the TT.  After the race, initially I was listed as DNF, but I was on the final reposted results at the tt as 3rd place, but apparently after the race, reinstated as DNF.  How do you protest a result that was changed AFTER the race?  I used a different chip, but Brittney wrote the number down on my registration and assured me it would be entered correctly.  My time on my SRM was 43:12 which is consistent with 3rd place.  If the results had been entered correctly, then I would be leading the UCA series.....Not sure what to do.

 kris walker, W123

Hi Kris,

I will check into it.

Jeff Clawson

I'm not sure that there was a 14 sec. problem across the board. For what it's worth, my on board computer showed 42.33, the official at the line wrote down 42.37 (4 sec. off), and UCA has me at 42.22 (unnecessary correction?). Methinks my on board computer is the rightest.

42:22 to 42:37 is 15 seconds.  That's pretty huge when you think about it....

 

Thanks Shane for starting this discussion and thanks Jeff for your responses. The timing chip has been an issue I have felt uncomfortable with for some time and have not said much as I didn't know the history around its use.

My thought about the chips and results are two fold. I think this first year of use should be viewed as a test year, with the idea that the chips are being tested for accuracy. If we were to use this basic approach then results should continue to be collected primarily via observation, photos and older timing technology and chip results then collaborated against those results as secondary information.The current manner in which results appear to be collaborated seems the reverse, and as such there may be some over confidence in a system that hasn't been tested thoroughly yet.

I have a second concern however. When I did purchase my chip and received it in the mail, the instructions for mounting and registering it seemed vague and a bit confusing. The chips don't come with mounting hardware, although the website states mounting harware will be sent to you by request. If this is the case, then the hardware should just be sent to you upon the original shipment to avoid the purchaser mounting it incorrectly. Secondly, the registration process for the chip system was confusing for myself and I am still not sure if I have it registered correctly. There are many categories out there (I am Cat 3 Masters 35-44), and I am not confident that I input my information correctly. It would be helpful to have a sample page of how to register information correctly for those of us who may not be as savy on the computer. I also was not informed when I rented my chip at Districts that I then needed to register it with the officials at the start of my race. As such I was not listed as having entered a race that I actually placed in. This error, although my error, is also one of the vendor's lack of communication regaridng the product. It seems that an assumption has been made that everybody knows what to do with the chips and as such there is no follow up direction of "now make sure you register this with the officials", or "mount the chip this way so it doesn't slide down your fork during the race."

I am concerned about the lack of receptivity of the timing chip vendor in this matter. I am sure there is some mild overwhelm on their part, but I think they need to be available to respond to concerns from all categories as any business would that acts professionally. I have made two previous attempts to have concerns dealt with regarding the chip system and have yet to receive any response from SBO. If I ran my business this way then it would not take long before I became unemployed. I believe the vendor needs to go the extra mile to display their commitment to the community. Instructions for mounting and registering chips need to posted at races where their booth is located. Mounting hardware needs to be sent with the chip. Chips that are sent need to be in good shape and not used. Phone calls and emails need to be returned and a basic respect for riders communicated, which in turn would elicit respect back. Perhaps a day early in the season (DMV or RMR race) could be dedicated to checking each chip accuracy with rider information. It seems like a lot of work, but each rider puts in a lot of work to train and false results from a system not working for whatever reason negates the riders effort.

I think racers are being patient and have demonstrated considerable understanding of the need to test new technology. I think the furstration comes from not having an obvious direction to pursue when errors do arise or having their concerns ignored by SBO. I have been pleased with the efforts of the officials to address this issue and hope this discussion helps to work out the bugs in something that I think will eventually be a benefit.

Eric

 

Eric,

The instructions for mounting the chips are here: http://utahcycling.com/blogs/utah_cycling_news/archive/2009/05/20/timing-chip-mounting-update.aspx (click on the attached pdf)

The mounting hardware is available from Sportsbase, you can get one at any race they are registering.

We have tried to get the word out about issues as they arise. I posted the instructions on May 20th in the "news" section of this Web site. Watch that space for important news that affects you! (you can click on "archive" to see older posts)

Thanks for your comments. If you feel you are not getting response with a question, post it on one of the forums or email myself or any of the other directors: http://utahcycling.com/content/Contact.aspx We will get back to you as soon as possible with an answer.

Thanks again, Jeff Clawson

Thanks Jeff. It's a learning process for everyone.

Eric

I am the promoter of the State TT, Sugar House, Downtown Crit and have used the chip system at all of them. I would like to clear the air about the State TT because a lot of what has been written is just, well, wrong. 

Let me walk you through some of my day on Saturday.  I met with the officials (this was at 8am).  I told them to manually time the entire race and that their time would be the OFFICIAL time (I told them the chip timing was to be the back-up).  We then went over to the start clock and synced everybody's watch.   From there, i started the Winning Time system and synchronized it with the start clock.  There was a discrepancy of three seconds on two of the officials stop watches(doug and cindy).  They were going to fix that discrepancy at 9am (the start of the race).  I sat and watched the first several masters come across the finish line and the box (chips) was working perfectly.  You hear the beep, i can see the chip number on the computer, check the time, all was going well.  I took the download over to SBO, results were published, medals were awarded, not a problem at all, until the 3's and 1/2's. 

In the 3's there were a few anomalies.  One, a rider forgot his chip and had to rent one.  When he came across the line, the software put him as a DNF because his chip code did not match his bib number and his name.  We still had is time but the software did not know where to put it.  Also, there were two riders whose chips didn't read because they were mounted with a lot of electrical tape.  The officials got them and put them in the results.

In the 1/2's we had three sets of two riders who, on the start sheet, had the same bib number.  The start officials noted this but didn't tell SBO.  When i did the download and brought it to SBO, the Winning Time system did not like having one bib number for two chip codes.  So the software basically shut down.  It took a while to figure out what was happening thus the delay.  None of this should have mattered because the officials were the official time/scoring.  Unfortunately, when the times were calculated there were some clerical errors which gave people wrong times.  This caused a six minute error in one instance, simply because everyone was in such a rush to get results out. 

 Bottom line, once we fixed the anomalies in the 3's, and figured out the bib number issue, we re-downloaded the entire race and everything came out fine.  Granted, it took us 3.5 hours to do it, but these unforeseen circumstances will have to be dealt with as they come up.  It may take us some time to be able to troubleshoot every situation, we just seemed to have some bad luck this go around.  Basically, just like any time-based or digitalized system, garbage in, garbage out. We will have to reduce the human factor before we can rely solely on the digital one.

Marek

 

Just wanted to congratulate SBE, SBO, the officials and the promoter for getting accurate results out rapidly at the State RR. If was nice not to have to wait around.

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

I am new to the area and intend on competing in many races, how do I buy a chip in the first place? PM me or reply in this thread. Thanks for your help.

Will Hilsman

These instructions might still work:

http://cycleutah.com/blogs/utah_cycling_news/archive/2009/02/23/timing-chip-reminder.aspx

thanks, just ordered it.