Masters A/B

Last post 11-22-2009, 3:24 PM by acatmull. 66 replies.
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  •  11-20-2009, 10:20 AM 6044 in reply to 6041

    Re: Masters A/B

    35+ is more compliant by 5 years. Masters A field size potentially increases by 18 riders.



    Mike Hanseen
    Millcreek Bicycles
    3969 South Wasatch Blvd.
    Salt Lake City UT 84124
    801.278.1500
    www.millcreekcycles.com
  •  11-20-2009, 10:30 AM 6045 in reply to 6044

    Re: Masters A/B

    BeerBeerBeer

    let's have a drag race to the nearest watering hole, and then decide what category we belong in.

    jr.

    sr.

    old fart.Smile

    juniors will be the ones outside watching our bikes.


    Andrew Lock
  •  11-20-2009, 11:16 AM 6046 in reply to 6026

    Re: Masters A/B

    Masters A 35+ Cat 1,2,3  Any cat

    Masters B 35+ Cat 3,4,5 only

    Masters C 55+ Any cat

    I like the proposal but I am not sure about  having 3's in with the Masters B's.  Race his category; race the masters B; race Masters A;  race the weekly crit series. . .How many chances does the fat "I haven't  raced in years" 3 need to get in shape? 

    Should we be accommodating the externalities of ones life outside of racing? Maybe then the categories should be based on hours a week worked; or number of kids; or how stressful your job is

    And also why exclude any master from racing in the A field?  It has always been an "open" category. 

    I haven't had my coffee and I am grumpy.

  •  11-20-2009, 4:48 PM 6047 in reply to 6046

    Re: Masters A/B

    I didn't want to need to get involved because I was hoping that eventually this would seem to be heading in the right direction but I'm afraid it's off the tracks:

    First, there is much confusion over Ability and how Masters categories were set up. 

    Ability as in physiological capacity is definitely age related and declines as a fact of life with the steepest declines in the mid 40s and early 50s.  The athlete has no power over age-related decline in Ability.

    Ability as in racing skill is based on individual experience, talent, training, etc. and can be improved and maintained through effort.

    The age-based divisions in Masters racing are intended to recognize age-based physiological Ability and organize cycling competition to allow athletes with reasonably similar Ability to race irrespective of their relative skill.  We can't stop aging but we can train and become better through experience..  At 62, I am probably more of an authority on aging than most of you...unfortunately.

    Second, the overall age differences in the proposed 35 or 40+ Masters A and 35 or 40+ Masters B are too large (either 19 years or 14).  35 year olds as a group will crush 54 year olds every time based solely on age related Ability.  The rule is for the center of the bell-curve and there will always be exceptions. With no option to race down only 10 years or so, many 50-54 year olds will be discouraged by racing "no-chance" against 35-44 year olds.

    Third, assumptions about who will do what and what categories they will race are not a good basis for predicting how the new system might work.  The abuse last year of the intent of Master 35+B by experienced 3s and riders who should never have been racing in an "entry-level" category is evidence of how any new system will produce unintended consequences.  The  existing 35/45/55+ "devil we know" is a better option.

    Fourth,  if the entry level Masters category is preserved limit it to 4/5s and require upgrading to the appropriate age/skill level based on results throughout the season.  3s by definition are not beginners.  If you are out of shape, overweight or just have the sniffles and need someone to blame for your inability to compete...look in the mirror.  Entry level Masters B  shouldn't be a category for "feel-good" racing by opportunists.

    Fifth, not much has been said about mixing categories.  To me, "raced together / scored separately" totally perverts the spirit of bike racing.  Good competitive racing is one group with reasonably similar Ability (not necessarily skill) racing for one first place.  I'll support any proposal that guarantees there will be no more mixed bunches.  The mixing of the strong and inexperienced 35+Bs and the 55+ last year was the worst example of bad mix.  Races mixing strong but inexperienced with weaker and experienced racers created disparities and risks that should not be tolerated.

    Bottom line for me:  Leave 35/45/55+ alone (closer age-based Ability racing and the option for the exceptional strong/skilled to still race an age group younger).  Clarify that Entry-level Masters 35+ 4/5 is for older beginners and move racers to where they really should be racing as soon as their results prove they are capable.  Ban mixed categories (start at intervals and forbid groups working together).

    For those that enjoy graphs, I have analyzed the TT results from World Masters.  The blue line is the average of the top ten in each age group and the red line graphs the median times.  Same course, same day times for riders representing the best of the world in catagory...old guys go slower no matter how hard they train...

    Worlds TT Times

     

  •  11-20-2009, 5:44 PM 6048 in reply to 6047

    Re: Masters A/B

    Ken,

     You make very valid points but the whole reason that this discussion is coming up because what we currently have is not working.  The Cat 35+ group was very small.  Many times the pre registeration for a UCA race would be less less than 10.  This was a reason for myself and many on our team to just go ahead and race category because we enjoyed the dynamics and competition of a larger field.  I submit the proposal that Jeremy Smith laid out with 40+ A & B's and 50+ Categories works the best for everyone.  Skewing the Masters age a little older than 35+ will make those races more competitive and the 50+ year-olds can choose to race up younger if they want.  It will also benefit the category races as well.  I too do not like the race together scored separately.  But I will go back to the fact that if there are fewer races to put on in a given day, each of those races can receive more attention.  Who  likes to race a crit for 25-30 minutes?  It is harder to officiate more races and provides wheel cars and prizes fro each race too.

     Should be a fun conversation tonight and I am sure the group will come up with a good solution.

     Thanks,

     ET


    Eric Thompson
  •  11-20-2009, 6:05 PM 6049 in reply to 6047

    Re: Masters A/B

    Ken has it exactly right, and the distinction between ability as racing skill and ability as physiological capacity is what has been missing from this discussion. 

    Truly "talent will out".  Good, strong riders will show themselves against their competition regardless of age.  But there is no question that even the extraordinary master rider is not the same rider he was when he was ten years younger.

    Just  because a handful of talented 50 year old riders in Utah can be competitive against 35 year old riders is no justification for creating a UCA sanctioned class structure that puts all 50 year old riders into the same field with 35 year old guys.  Such a large age group naturally penalizes the older end of the class and will probably have the result of moving older guys out of the sport.

    Remember that age graded competition has brought countless racers into (or back to) the sport.  It is designed to level the playing field as much as possible.  A 35 to 54 year old age group defeats the bed rock principle of age graded competion.

     

    Lorin 

      

     

     

  •  11-22-2009, 3:24 PM 6050 in reply to 6047

    Re: Masters A/B

    Having won the UCA points race in the new 35+B category this last year, I would like to weigh in with my thoughts/opinions regarding the issue.  At the start of last year I was a 40 year old racer who has been competing for about 5-6 years.  I own a small company and have 6 kids.  I often found it frustrating competing in the Cat 4 fields with very large fields, many independent riders, little sense of team strategy or tactics, all making it virtually impossible for a break to succeed.  My best finish in about 3 years of racing as a Cat 4 I think was 5th.  I started this last year racing as a Cat 4.  My first race I did as a Masters 35B was the Downtown Crit which I did in this category due to a scheduling conflict that made it impossible for me to race in the Cat 4's.  This race had a slightly smaller group than I was used to in the Cat 4 group.  I had a team-mate off the front in a break the first part of the race.  After he got caught another rider attacked and I joined him to form a 2 man break.  This would have been suicide in the Cat 4's, but by working hard together we were able to stay away and I ended up taking 2nd.  By far my best result as a racing cyclist and I was excited again to race in the new Master 35B category.  In enjoyed success this year in the master 35B category, and have now upgraded to a Cat 3 and next year plan to either race as a Cat 3 or in the Master A category depending on the race and team mates that are racing and what races they are doing.  I have a couple opinions and observations having competed in a number of events in this new category this last year.

    1.  I think it's imperative to have different age categories and allow races based on those age categories to exist.  I think that as age categories go, you could either leave it at 35/45/55, but I think with the addition of the B category it would be better to have either 35+/50+, or 40+/55+, along with a B category.  I think it's important to have certain age brackets, as I agree with Ken, that physical ability certainly decreases with age, and needs to be broken out by categories that recognizes this, allows for sufficient field size/competition, but also doesn't make a 65 year old who wants to race, have to race against a 36 year old, unless they want to.  I think that the oldest age category should be given the choice to race masters B regardless of category if they choose, or race in the A category of their age grouping.  But I think the A/B category is important.  Being a 40 year old, I was fearful of racing in the masters category as I had heard that it was mostly comprised of experienced Cat 1, 2, and 3's and found this to be true in several races through the year.  The B category gave me a category to compete in that was less intense, but was still competitive. 

    2.  I think that results in the B category should count towards upgrade, and once necessary points are awarded, a B racer should upgrade to Cat 3 when able and qualified and then if a master choose between racing in the Cat 3 field or in the master A field.

    3.  I think the B category should only be for masters's Cat 4's and 5's, or for racers in an age category above age 50 if they choose. 

    4.  For those who have indicated that someone who is masters age, is a cat 3, is out of shape and hasn't raced competitively for several years should be able to race in the B category I agree with them as well, but not as a Cat 3.  My understanding is that you can request a category downgrade to a Cat 4 level.  This should be done if someone is no longer able to compete in the Masters A or as a Cat 3 racer and would like to be able to race in the master's B category until they are able to compete again.  This should be done on a case by case basis, approved by the person in charge of awarding category upgrades, and taking into account absence from racing in recent years due to life situations.   The Chalk Creek Road race this year was the State RR Championship for Masters and because of this many Cat 3's races in the Master's 35B category instead of as Cat 3's or as master A.  This resulted in one of the largest masters B fields of the year, one of the smallest Cat 3 fields of the year, and 1st & 2nd place were taken by Cat 3's who in my opinion should have raced as Master A's or as Cat 3's, having already acheived racing success and being awarded an upgrade.  Again, preserving the integrity of the Master's B category as a category primarily reserved for those master rider's who haven't yet had enough race success to upgrade into a more competitive category.  Upgrade from Cat 5 to 4 requires no race success, only competing in a certain number of events.  Upgrade from Cat 4 to Cat 3 requires race success to upgrade.      

    5.  I think it's imperative not to race together, but score separately.  This defeats the entire purpose of having separate categories to allow separate classification of riders based on age or race success.  Several times this last year, they combined the Master's 35B group with the Masters A group, or the Master's 55 group.  I think this is very frustrating for the riders involved and defeats the purpose of having separate categories.  It's very frustrating for either a 58 year old suddenly trying to compete against a 36 year old, or a less competitive Cat 4 or 5 38 year master's B racer having to try and compete against a cat 1 or 2 Master's A racer.  I understand the desire to race the categories together to create fields larger than 5-10 riders making it easier for the promoter.  This is where I think by creating only 3 master's categories you can obtain field sizes sufficient to support a separate race.  Either Masters 35, Masters 50, and Masters B, or Master 40+, Master 55+, and master B categories.  Whichever breakout would result in fields of 15+ racers, allow a B category for less experienced racers, but still maintain some age separation.  And even if a master 55+ category only has 7 racers in it, they may prefer to race against other similar experienced and aged racers, rather than being forced to try and compete in a race that has them racing against widely different ages. 

     I think those 5 points sum up my opinions of the discussion.   I think that a master B category is important, but should be maintained for racers who are older and haven't obtained race success yet.  Once success has been achieved due to race results, that racer should be upgraded and compete in either the Cat 3 field or their respective master A field. 

    Thanks for allowing me to add my 2 cents worth.  Adam Catmull

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